About Me

In writing the "About Me" portion of this blog I thought about the purpose of the blog - namely, preventing the growth of Socialism & stopping the Death Of Democracy in the American Republic & returning her to the "liberty to abundance" stage of our history. One word descriptions of people's philosophies or purposes are quite often inadequate. I feel that I am "liberal" meaning that I am broad minded, independent, generous, hospitable, & magnanimous. Under these terms "liberal" is a perfectly good word that has been corrupted over the years to mean the person is a left-winger or as Mark Levin more accurately wrote in his book "Liberty & Tyranny" a "statist" - someone looking for government or state control of society. I am certainly not that & have dedicated the blog to fighting this. I believe that I find what I am when I consider whether or not I am a "conservative" & specifically when I ask what is it that I am trying to conserve? It is the libertarian principles that America was founded upon & originally followed. That is the Return To Excellence that this blog is named for & is all about.

Tuesday, November 17, 2009

FairTax On Radio - 11/12/09

For anyone who missed Barbara Panella & me on the radio last Thursday just click on click here to hear the audio to hear the show.


  1. Doug/Barbara,

    Listened to the whole show, and you both are articulate and passionate about the Fairtax. However, reading a couple of "comic books" written by a radio talk show host and an obscure Georgia Congressman doesn't qualify anyone to discuss the details of the Fairtax fairly. I highly recommend fairtaxblog.com and their Research section where both pro and con issues are discussed in a civil manner.

    It's easy to demagogue the IRS and the tax code, but some of your "facts" really aren't facts. For instance, you can't compare tax brackets to tax rates. Yes, the corporate tax rate is 35%, but in 2007, the corporate effective income tax rate was 3% of sales. The business Social Security contribution was 4.5% of sales. And, you might be interested to know that the original income tax legislation was printed on 38 pages versus the 131 pages you attribute to HR25. Furthermore, according to the Tax Foundation, the income tax code can be printed on 5,000 pages, the supporting regs on 23,000 pages, and the entire income tax code and supporting regs on 36,000 pages. That is only half of the AFFT claims.

    Both of you stressed what keeping 100% of your gross pay would mean in terms of mortgage payments, investments, savings, etc. But you failed to mention that most of that extra take home pay will be needed to pay significantly higher retail prices. Very misleading, imho. And retail prices have to rise if we all get 100% of our gross pay/pension. There is no free lunch!

    Barbara talked about used stuff including cars. While it is true that no federal tax is collected on the sales of used goods, there won't be any extra cash windfall by buying used. Used prices will quickly adjust to the increased retail price of new goods. Think about it as the embedded cost of the Fairtax.

    You both called the Fairtax "fair", but is it fair to force retirees to resume paying for their SS pensions with their sales tax dollars? Is it fair to double tax everyone's after tax savings when spent? Is it fair that 30 million workers would pay no net taxes to the federal government due to the Family Consumption Allowance? Compare that to the one million workers today who pay no income tax and qualify for the EITC to offset the payroll taxes. Is 30 million non-contributers a good thing for our country? I don't think so!

    I agree with you that with a VAT, there would be more tax collectors to monitor, but there would also be significantly reduced tax avoidance/evasion according to most tax experts.

    Finally none of us are going to live long enough to see the sales tax rate drop. Changing the way we collect taxes does nothing to reduce the size and cost of the federal government. With trillion dollar annual deficits and 20 trillion in national debt on the horizon, how revenue is collected isn't nearly as important as how much is collected and how it is spent.

  2. The previous post from Dutchman 3 amounts to superficial and peripheral sniping at the Fair Tax - missing its very core. The FairTax is the only tax, existing or proposed, that meets all four tests of successful tax policy.

    First, the FairTax is transparent. People and businesses can know effortlessly whether they are in compliance. Today’s IRC fails the transparency test.

    Second, the FairTax is efficient. It captures more of its tax base, including sales to criminal and alien elements, at less cost to its government than any other tax. With few collection points, simplicity, two-party checks and the concentration of retail trade, compliance rises sharply. Unemployed former IRS agents will become available to keep it that way. Today’s IRC is famously inefficient.

    Third, the FairTax is friendly to economic growth. By shifting the burden of taxation away from the productive segments of the economy to consumption in a way that does not hurt consumption, the FairTax transforms the economy for the better. Today’s IRC punishes thirft, effort and productivity. The FairTax rewards these attributes.

    Finally, the FairTax is fair. The FairTax allows Americans to decide for themselves, through their consumption choices, and not the IRS, how much tax they pay and when they pay it. Viewed in terms of remaining lifetime resources, and not merely through a one-year window, the FairTax benefits all, but it benefits the low-income and middle class people disproportionately. Today’s IRS benefits lobbyists.

    If Dutchman3 is not in favor of the FairTax, he would do better to end his sniping and disclose what he is for.

  3. FairTaxJim,

    Call it sniping if you must, but I was just responding to statements made on the radio show. If you want more serious issues, there are constitutional issues, federal deficit issues, numerous fairness issues, "third rail" issues, evasion and avoidance issues and a number of disingenuous marketing issues. This isn't the format to get in to all that, but if you want to come over to fairtaxblog.com, I'd be happy to discuss any of the issues.

    As for what I would support, I call it Fairtax-Lite. There is no question that a consumption tax would be better for the US economy than an income tax. How about a 12% national sales tax that would replace just the income tax, with no exemptions, no taxation of governments, no inventory tax credits, retains the payroll taxes and the estate/gift taxers, a targeted Family Consumption Allowance similar to the EITC, and phases in over five years. If we really want to get rid of the IRS/IRC, Fairtax-Lite would have a much better chance of consideration by Congress, imho! After twelve years of flogging the Fairtax with little or no progress, isn't it time to trim down HR25 to a simpler plan?

  4. Dutchman3
    We already know each other on FairTaxBlog.com. I'm the guy from New Jersey. Doug and Carol Hartlove are my District Directors for the Eleventh Congressional District here - and can they ever recruit and turn out FairTax supporters! They are also very familiar with FairTaxBlog.

    I'm glad to see your comments take a more substantive turn. Let me repeat the reply I made on FairTaxBlog to FairTax Lite. Although I would not feel betrayed if we ended up with FairTaxLite, I am holding out for the bill as written.

    It can happen. With this President and Congress, the FairTax is in a building year. But we have come a long way in New Jersey. Four years ago there were five of us sitting in Norm Simms' living room in Barnegat. Today we have a vibrant network. We have active directors in all of New Jersey's 13 Congressional Districts except one. We were in fifteen different locations on Tax Day, we have had booths at nine community street fairs, and we have had speakers on statewide media. We got resolutions from two branches of the Letter Carriers' Union unanimously endorsing the FairTax, and we came within striking distance of passing it at their biennial convention - over the objection of the leadership. We have had letters published in the Wall Street Journal, Star Ledger and Washington Times. I could go on and on.

    The effort is starting to pay off. Four years ago, no one here in New Jersey knew what the FairTax was. Today it is a familiar concept to many people in the Garden State.

    Next door in Delaware the FairTax was dead as a doornail. Today folks there are starting to get organized and excited.

    The TEA party movement has helped us. We stress that we are not the TEA party, but their rallies are fertile recruiting grounds for us.

    Nationally the movement has taken a clear turn from a top-down command style to a grassroots movement independent of Houston - but still in cooperation with Houston. The grassroots movement for the FairTax had a presence at CPAC and Netroots. Money was raised from all over the country for these events. At both diametrically opposed groups, the FairTax was well received.

    When the political tide turns - as it is turning now, our ground game will be ready. If we get just one Congressman from the Northeast to co-sponsor the bill, the dam will break. We are patient, but we can and will win.

    See you back on FairTaxBlog.